Comments on: Authentic, but how? What questions would you ask this organization….

By: Deb

Deb — Fri, 23 May 2008 03:54:27 +0000

First I have a question as to Joan’s position in the chorus as a singer. Does her voice uniquely qualify her to sing in a male range? Or is it the oppostie: does she bring something special to the group as, say, a soprano or alto voice that is higher than the others’ voices? Again, this raises the question of whether she is she a “one-off” in her role? Or is she simply a female tenor (of which there are a number out there) who blends right in and might be considered qualified due to her voice alone? Also, would it be legitimate — or perhaps highly offensive! — to ask Joan if being a gay woman makes her MORE qualified to be the only woman in this group. As a gay woman, is her gender or her view of it more fluid/less rigid than that of most women, allowing her to claim a slightly “male” status? Ok, never mind — a minefield…but I wonder. As a straight woman who once sang with a lot of gay men in a mixed chorus, I nonetheless cannot imagine I would ever feel that I was qualified to audition for a gay men’s chorus. Maybe Joan has a closer identification with them which makes her role possible. And finally, in a context where gender definitions may be more fluid, or at least are less traditional, is it possible her identification is “authentic” in ways that I could not judge as a tradition-bound straight first alto?

By: CV Harquail

CV Harquail — Thu, 22 May 2008 12:56:44 +0000

Adelaide-
Thanks so much for the info about Will&Grace– I’ll see if I can find that online, b/c (not sure if you saw the reply to Ian, above) this is actually the NYC Gay Men’s Chorus– I wonder how much of the comedy reflected Joan’s experience?

I love that line of thinking– is there a ‘tipping point’ up to which the organization can ‘deviate’ but beyond which marks a change in ‘who they are’ and thus in the balance that creates authenticity….

And for the individual member herself, how much depends on being the only one? Hmmmmmmm

By: Adelaide

Adelaide — Thu, 22 May 2008 12:35:12 +0000

THese questions are really intriguing…

What about “How would you feel about a 2nd woman (or more) joining the group?” If that’s being considered, do you think you should have more of a say than the other (male) members? Would be interested in when she would think the group would lose its identity, and also if there are issues of her self-identification as the only woman.

If you want to go down the discernment line of questioning with sports analogies, there’s always the Danica Patrick/Michelle Wi (sp) or the Renee Richards paths to follow in examining the questions that Ian raises.

There’s actually a very funny “will and grace” episode where Matt Damon plays a character who is straight and joins the NYC Gay Man’s chorus, and Jack outs him.

By: CV Harquail

CV Harquail — Thu, 22 May 2008 11:06:01 +0000

Hi Ian-

I’m not sure that the organization is discriminating per se… if no women (other than Joan) seek to be admitted, can we say that the organization is discriminating?

Or, is there a way that being ‘male’ is a ‘bona fide employment/membership criterion’? I hear your question as being about criteria for inclusion and exclusion that is ‘bio-identity’ based… And to make it more specific to Joan and this organization, would it work for you if I asked her under what conditions her being denied membership might have felt ok to her??

Also, Ian, would you have different questions and concerns about membership criteria and discrimination if I told you that (1) the chorus is the NYC Gay Men’s Chorus, and that (2) Joan was for 10 years the Director of GLAAD (Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation)? http://www.glaad.org/about/history.php

As I mentioned, there is *MORE* to the story!

By: CV Harquail

CV Harquail — Thu, 22 May 2008 10:58:08 +0000

Mary Jo– that question about how becoming an unconventional/ ‘minority’ / out-of-type member is *intriguing*. I’ll ask Joan about how being a member has influenced her self-definition. … is there something self-defining that she shares with the men/organization? Has she acculturated or identified herself in ways that allow her to ‘fit in’? Has she resisted that? We’ll find out!

By: Mary Jo Hatch

Mary Jo Hatch — Thu, 22 May 2008 05:49:11 +0000

Possible question (obvious): Tell me the story behind how you came to be a member of a Men’s Choir when you are clearly a woman!

Another: How did/does your membership in the Men’s Choir change how you think about yourself? How you think about men?

By: Ian Ayres

Ian Ayres — Wed, 21 May 2008 22:21:25 +0000

What are the circumstances (if any) in which explicit organizational sex discrimination is justified? Are these circumstances symetric — so it is okay to exclude women from male “activities” as well as to exclude men from “female” activities? So it okay to stop females from playing for “male” teams? Is it okay to stop males from playing for “female” teams? Is it okay to stop women from applying to the Citadel? Is it okay to stop men from appling to Bryn Mawr? In a world, where John Travolta can play a woman straight and a woman can play Bob Dylan straight, is it okay to categorically refuse to consider “cross-gendered” casting?